This past weekend, I was invited to minister at the Orlando House of Prayer (www.orlandohop.org) with Justin Rizzo. Every month, OHOP hosts a special weekend of worship, prayer, and teaching. This month was extra special because Mike Bickle, the leader of our missions base here in Kansas City, was invited to attend and speak. Mike and his wife Diane take a yearly vacation to Florida, and although Mike rarely travels and speaks, he took time out of his vacation to speak at the event to encourage the body of Christ in Orlando and all over Florida. Over the weekend, Justin also spoke to the staff of the Orlando house of prayer on the “big picture” and ultimate goal of the prayer movement - the perpetual, incessant adoration of Jesus on the earth as it is in heaven.
Prayer is arising like incense to Jesus throughout the state of Florida. It was so amazing to see dozens of leaders of prayer ministries from all around the state of Florida. Each of them had a couple of minutes to share their own story and what the Lord is doing with each of their ministries. Some are very small and some are larger with 50-100 committed people. Some have only one or two prayer meetings per week, and others have hours upon hours of prayer per week. Each of these ministries, no matter how large or how small, bring such a smile to God’s face. It was an amazing privilege to hear what the Lord was doing with each of them.
The prayer movement is not just the latest fad in the body of Christ. Houses of prayer are popping up all across the earth completely independent of any organization or franchise. Fervent desire for worship and prayer is springing up like a well in the hearts of so many. Why? The Holy Spirit is bringing forth a people who have no greater obsession or passion than the Man Jesus Christ. I’ve written on this a little bit but over the next weeks and months I will be writing some posts to develop the biblical basis for the prayer movement much more. The grand drama that is unfolding before us will end in the entire earth recognizing that the man called Jesus Christ is God – the sovereign ruler and creator of all things. With this in mind, we can look to the increase of night and day prayer across the earth and better appreciate its meaning and timing.
I recently posted a new audio message given by Mike Bickle at onething 09 on why the Lord is raising up singers and musicians to minister to Him in a full-time capacity for the prayer movement. Mike spoke a similar message to the crowd in Orlando. I'd encourage you to listen to it - it makes better sense of why I do what I do! Be sure to check it out here.
Comments
Some questions
Hi Josh,
I'm sitting here watching you guys blow the roof off the place on Friday night....oh my, wish I was there!
I've been watching since New Year's Eve, when I received a dispatch from a friend in KC. Since then, I've read some beginner type books on things of the Spirit by authors such as John White, Jack Deere and Sam Storms.
Here is a reference in Sam Storm's book, "The Beginner's Guide to Spiritual Gifts," with regard to
the difference between the interpretation of tongues and phophecies.....
"....Pentacostals and charismatic believers have long assumed that when tongues are interpreted the result is the equivalent of prophecy. Mark Stibbe, however, rightly challenges this view, insisting that
when a tongue is given in public, there is a sense in which the congregation is "overhearing" the passionate worship of an individual believer (much like what happens when we read the Psalms: these are hymns of praise from a believer or the nation to God). If an interpretation is offered which is not in the form of prayerful adoration, we should be cautious about regarding it as a genuine interpretation. It if is offered in the form of praise language, then it has a much better chance of being true "interpretation."
If what I've said is correct, it would suggest that the many so-called messages in tongues directed to people in the form of instruction, rebuke, or exhortation have not been properly interpreted.
In a Church setting, Storms makes clear that uninterpreted tongues speech is explicitly prohibited, based on Paul's warnings in 1 Cor 14.
This is what I find awfully difficult to reconcile with what I see taking on place on the live KC webcast.
I am taking all of what I see, and read very seriously, and I want to believe what I see is Biblical, but based on the parameters that Storms lays down, I don't see how the mass uninterpreted tongues speech on the webcast can be justified Biblically. When I read the Bible, I can't help but come to the same conclusion as it seems the verses in 1 Cor 14 are pretty straightforward. Udoubtedly, Paul was very concerned about how tongues were being used, and especially, how it would appear to the unconverted.
I am sure that this is something that the leadership in Kansas City has heard before, and I would be very grateful for any explanation links you could provide.
With every blessing,
Jim Hale
Manakin Sabot, Va
Hi Jim, thanks for
Hi Jim, thanks for commenting! I'm glad you are enjoying the webcast.
I'm not quite sure what you're asking about though... Are you referring to the times of "singing in the Spirit" when the worship team leads the room into singing with their understanding or singing with their spirit to God in their devotional prayer language? (1 Corinthians 14:15, Ephesians 5:18-20)
I'm not sure I have seen tongues used from a platform directed towards the room in a "declarative" type manner during any of the awakening meetings, which is one of the issues that Paul was addressing in 1 Corinthians 12-14. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're asking?
Feel free to clarify if you'd like and I'd love to try to point you to the answers you're looking for!
God bless,
Josh
Perhaps I'm confused about
Perhaps I'm confused about what is happening via the webcast. A few nights ago, Wes Hall encouraged everyone in the building to pray in their own spirit language. So, you had members of the band, as well as those in attendance speaking in tongues that is not understandable to others, unless of course someone is interpreting.
There was no interpretation, nor could there realisticalliy be an interpretation for dozens, if not hundreds, all speaking in their own prayer language.
Paul says in 1 Cor 14, that there should be on two, or at most, three doing it, and that there needs to be an interpretation.
Question #1: How can what is taking place nightly on the webcast be reconciled with Paul's warning to the Corinthians?
Secondly, Storms quotes Mark Stibbe in support of his contention that tongues are ONLY for prayer, and not for
any kind of prophetic utterances. Stibbe likens tongues to overhearing a prayer to God, thus the interpretation is only done in a vertical sense, and has nothing to do with instruction to those in attendance.
Thus, when Wes or Allen call for phophesies to be heard, they should not be spoken in tongues, according to Storms and Stibbe.
Question #2: Do you agree with them?
I"ve recently abandoned my cessationist convictions, and use my own prayer language in private. It is the public part that I'm having trouble with.
I saw many worship services with tongues in my youth (AG churches), but there was always an interpretation offered immediately following.
Question #3: Are you making a distinction between singing in the spirit, as opposed to merely speaking in tongues.
Question #4: Can you link me to books or essays concerning my questions?
I'm grateful to you, brother. You guys are obviously commited to excellence in what you are doing, and your website is simply outstanding.
With every blessing,
Jim in Virginia
P.S. I am most grateful for you taking to time to correspond. You guys are creating quite a buzz right now, and I know IHOP is commited to teaching. It is so refreshing to see an outpouring of the spirit, accompanied by serious intellectual pursuit and an appreciation of church history.
Hi Jim, Thanks for the
Hi Jim,
Thanks for the clarification! I think I have a better grasp on what you're asking about. I'll try to answer as methodically as you asked the questions :)
Question #1: In 1 Corinthians, scholars and historians tell us that Paul is writing to what I'd crudely call a "rowdy" church. We know they were operating in and extremely zealous for spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 14:12), so much so that they would use them "out of turn". I like to think of a modern day example that some can more easily relate to - the pastor is preaching his sermon and in the middle of his key points, several folks in the balcony begin prophesying loudly to the guy on the front row, and at the same time a woman stands up with a word of knowledge for the family on row ten. Things are being done out of turn and in a disorderly fashion, and the family and the guy on the front row are not built up and strengthened by the operation of the spiritual gifts, but rather confused and discouraged. In this same way, Paul hears of the Corinthian church's "rowdiness" and addresses it in his letter to them.
As a quick outline of the main passages in question - in 1 Cor. 12, Paul speaks about the spiritual gifts that operate in a corporate gathering for the edification of one another. In 1 Cor. 13, he provides the "lens" by which those spiritual gifts should operate. And in 1 Cor. 14, he describes the practical ways the gifts should operate through the lens of love so that others are edified.
The important thing to see is that the issue Paul is addressing regarding spiritual gifts, prophecy, and tongues in 1 Cor. 14 is edification of one another. He spoke about the same thing regarding another issue the church was struggling with - food sacrificed to idols (1 Cor 8:1 - "knowledge puffs up, but love edifies). Edification is one of the main themes of Paul's letter to them.
With this in mind, it makes it easier to see Paul's point on 1 Cor. 14 regarding tongues. He is concerned that when the spiritual gifts he addresses in 1 Cor. 12:28-30 are in operation, they operate through love so that the most number of people are strengthened and edified by the Lord through them.
Looking at tongues for a moment. Tongues is an interesting gift, because it has both a corporate expression and an individual expression. In 1 Cor. 14, Paul makes a distinction between tongues used for corporate edification and tongues used for personal edification. I'll explain a little bit more in a moment.
He makes it clear that:
Clearly there is personal benefit to praying in tongues. Paul said that he prayed in tongues more than anyone else in the Corinthian church (1 Cor. 14:18). I believe he understood its power to build up and edify his spirit, and chose to engage in it often for that reason. However, the individual expression of tongues was not what he was primarily concerned with in this chapter - he was concerned with the use of tongues when addressed towards the corporate body. If there was no interpretation of that tongue, no edification would occur in the hearts of the hearers because they would simply not understand what was being said. This is why Paul said: "yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue." (1 Cor. 14:19)
Is Paul forbidding any sort of tongues, even when spoken towards God devotionally, in a public place? Must it be done only in private? I don't think so. We see many times throughout the book of Acts where believers were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke with tongues, and yet we often times have no record of an interpretation being given in those settings. Even in Acts 2, believers were filled with the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues as a form of praise and thanks to God. No "formal" interpretation was given. If the hearers from all around Jerusalem were not there to understand what they were saying, would this have been an "illegal" use of the gift of tongues? Probably not :) Paul is simply making an appeal for the "more excellent way" for the gift of tongues and interpretation by an individual addressed to a congregation, which ends in edification for all through the interpretation of the tongue.
What Allen Hood and Wes Hall have been encouraging from the stage sometimes at the IHOPU Awakening meetings is the form of "devotional" tongues - engaging the heart with God in a dialogue through one's devotional prayer language. They encourage the room to "lift your voice to the Lord". The speakers and congregants are not directing the tongues at the congregation or towards each other for some sort of corporate edification (which of course would require an interpretation for actual corporate edification to happen), but rather praying and singing with their spirit and their understanding to God devotionally (1 Cor. 14:15) and receiving personal edification. If Allen or Wes were to quiet the whole room, have individuals utter their tongues in turn while addressing the congregation, and the Lord provided the interpretation through another individual so that the entire room could hear and be edified, this would be the type of tongues Paul was addressing in 1 Cor. 14.
I think Paul himself encourages the devotional type of tongues very often. Some passages include Eph. 5:18-21, Jude 20, Eph. 6:18, and of course the various verses throughout 1 Cor. 14 that I've mentioned.
Question #2: I have not read Storms and Stibbe, so I'm not really sure I can make a definitive statement on what they've written because I do not know the full context of what you've quoted. However, I'd guess that they are still speaking of the gift of tongues and interpretation in the 1 Cor. 12-14 corporate context, not the devotional context.
Question #3: I think I probably answered this question for you in #1, but yes, I would make that distinction :)
Question #4: I'm not familiar with any resources myself, but I'm hoping my weak words provide you with a bit more understanding and a different perspective as you read scripture so that you can better understand what Paul was trying to say to the church in Corinth.
I did write about this a little bit more a while back on the comments on this blog post comment. I'd encourage you to read that.
I hope this is helpful! Let me know if I can answer anything else for you. I'm just a little guy trying to stay true to the Word of God while reaching for everything that God has for me, so please give me feedback :)
Blessings!
Josh
Josh, I so appreciate your
Josh,
I so appreciate your generosity of spirit in responding to tough questions in such a winsome manner. IHOP is generating a ton of discussion, having crossed over into the mainstream evangelical church consciousness, and I think it is important for people to understand what is going on out there as your influence continues to grow.
As I read 1 Cor 12, 13 and 14, I can certainly see your perspective, although I would say that it seems clear in ACTs 2 that actual earth languages were being spoken. This is an entirely different matter as what Paul is addressing in 1 Cor., at least as far as I can tell.
I see that the Forerunner bookstore sells Storms' book titled "Beginner's Guide To The Spiritual Gifts" in which he
comes down hard against speaking prophetic words in a tongue, or any kind of exhortation or instruction in a tongue. His point is that speaking in tongues is limited to a PRAYER language only, whether in public or private.
I posed the same questions to him in an email, and just received his reply. I think you will find it helpful, but before I paste it (see below) let me thank you again. I've recently begun to experience the power of the spirit, on the heels of a very challening year for me and my family.
May God continue to bless you and your ministry my brother.
Jim
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Jim,
In my book I argue that corporate or mass uninterpreted tongues is
prohibited in gatherings where the express purpose is to instruct or teach
or edify other believers and where unbelievers might be present and thus be
confused by what they hear. In gatherings of Christians designed for prayer
and praise, I don't see Paul's prohibition in 1 Cor. 14 being applicable.
I haven't watched the meetings you describe. What we have to keep in mind,
of course, is that the apostle Paul could not possibly have envisioned the
situation you describe, where a meeting designed for believers to pray and
worship is being streamed via the internet to others all around the world.
So we are faced in trying to apply the biblical text to a completely
unexpected situation. I think we should be careful in doing so. I'm not even
sure how to go about it.
The "drunken" type demonstrations you mention are manifestations that I find
problematic. I certainly don't endorse these at all.
I hope this helps. Blessings,
Sam
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